counter rotating props q?

Question:

The left handed Alpha drive is the drive, not the engine. I spoke with a guy who did a trade in and it didn’t hurt his wallet tooo badly.

I thought so, that’s why "katy_lied" had me stumped on the "port engine is left handed".  I thought Mercruisers were all right-handed – clockwise facing the damper, CCW facing the flywheel. Rob * * * – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "katy_lied" , I know you said the port is engine left and starboard right, but are you referring to the engine crankshafts or just the propshafts?  I am really looking to find out where Mercruiser does the switch on the Alpha… in the engine or in the gearcase.  I am wondering about the revised bearing loads at the propshaft (aft gear as opposed to fore gear for forward motion). What engines are you running?  It seems to me that a revised lower gearcase would be much simpler for the port engine as opposed to a left-hand engine and drivetrain.  Thanks, Rob The left handed Alpha drive is the drive, not the engine. I spoke with a guy who did a trade in and it didn’t hurt his wallet tooo badly.

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Response:

Yes, they are Mercruiser outdrives. I guess the follow up question would be… if they do not counter rotate, does the fact that there are two screws rotating the same way, actually increase the torque or pull, as opposed to a one screw operation? Doug

Response:

My boat has twin Alpha outdrives.  They are counter rotating (port engine is left handed, starboard right).  In my experience, going forward idel with either engine does not really give you any serious torque effects.  At least none that can’t be easily steered out of so you don’t really notice it.  However, go into reverse idle on one engine and you can nearly spin the boat on the paddle wheel effect alone!  I would say that the props are designed for forward motion. So in reverse, the percentage of lateral thrust due to paddle wheel effect is much greater than the reverse thrust (at idle) so these things happen.  I would imagine someone with two right handed props will have his hands full if he puts both engines in idle reverse at the same time.  I’m sure once you got used to it, it would be no big deal. BTW…in forward cruise I don’t think you would have any real torque effects.  It may be hard to trawl fishing lines at idle and keep a straight line, but at cruise I don’t know how much the casual boater would notice. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, they are Mercruiser outdrives. I guess the follow up question would be… if they do not counter rotate, does the fact that there are two screws rotating the same way, actually increase the torque or pull, as opposed to a one screw operation? Doug

Response:

"katy_lied" , I know you said the port is engine left and starboard right, but are you referring to the engine crankshafts or just the propshafts?  I am really looking to find out where Mercruiser does the switch on the Alpha… in the engine or in the gearcase.  I am wondering about the revised bearing loads at the propshaft (aft gear as opposed to fore gear for forward motion). What engines are you running?  It seems to me that a revised lower gearcase would be much simpler for the port engine as opposed to a left-hand engine and drivetrain.  Thanks, Rob * * *

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My boat has twin Alpha outdrives.  They are counter rotating (port engine is left handed, starboard right).  In my experience, going forward idel with either engine does not really give you any serious torque effects.  At least none that can’t be easily steered out of so you don’t really notice it.  However, go into reverse idle on one engine and you can nearly spin the boat on the paddle wheel effect alone!  I would say that the props are designed for forward motion. So in reverse, the percentage of lateral thrust due to paddle wheel effect is much greater than the reverse thrust (at idle) so these things happen.  I would imagine someone with two right handed props will have his hands full if he puts both engines in idle reverse at the same time.  I’m sure once you got used to it, it would be no big deal. BTW…in forward cruise I don’t think you would have any real torque effects.  It may be hard to trawl fishing lines at idle and keep a straight line, but at cruise I don’t know how much the casual boater would notice.

Yes, they are Mercruiser outdrives. I guess the follow up question would be… if they do not counter rotate, does the fact that there are two screws rotating the same way, actually increase the torque or pull, as opposed to a one screw operation? Doug

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Response:

Counter rotation is done at the lower unit. Engine rotation in either case is CCW at the flywheel end. I don’t think a standard gear housing can be converted to counter rotating. You have to buy a factory built counter rotating gearcase. Regards, Jim –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "katy_lied" , I know you said the port is engine left and starboard right, but are you referring to the engine crankshafts or just the propshafts?  I am really looking to find out where Mercruiser does the switch on the Alpha… in the engine or in the gearcase.  I am wondering about the revised bearing loads at the propshaft (aft gear as opposed to fore gear for forward motion). What engines are you running?  It seems to me that a revised lower gearcase would be much simpler for the port engine as opposed to a left-hand engine and drivetrain.  Thanks, Rob * * * My boat has twin Alpha outdrives.  They are counter rotating (port engine is left handed, starboard right).  In my experience, going forward idel with either engine does not really give you any serious torque effects.  At least none that can’t be easily steered out of so you don’t really notice it.  However, go into reverse idle on one engine and you can nearly spin the boat on the paddle wheel effect alone!  I would say that the props are designed for forward motion. So in reverse, the percentage of lateral thrust due to paddle wheel effect is much greater than the reverse thrust (at idle) so these things happen.  I would imagine someone with two right handed props will have his hands full if he puts both engines in idle reverse at the same time.  I’m sure once you got used to it, it would be no big deal. BTW…in forward cruise I don’t think you would have any real torque effects.  It may be hard to trawl fishing lines at idle and keep a straight line, but at cruise I don’t know how much the casual boater would notice. Yes, they are Mercruiser outdrives. I guess the follow up question would be… if they do not counter rotate, does the fact that there are two screws rotating the same way, actually increase the torque or pull, as opposed to a one screw operation? Doug —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I have looked at buying a 1988 Four Winns, 245 Vista.  It has twin 165 I/O motors.  The owner didn’t seem to know much about it, and I see that it has two right handed props on it.  I suspect he threw them on their for looks, as it’s sitting on a busy road, and I think he wanted to throw some cheap props on it for looks.  Anyway, would 4 Winns, or did 4 Winns, make a twin screw boat where the props did not counter rotate?  Wouldn’t that be kinda’ lame?  Isn’t that part of the reason for desiring a twin screw… to stop the traverse pull from prop rotation? Thanks, Doug

Response:

4 Winns is not in charge of prop rotation per se. Engine makers, transmission makers, and stern drive makers decide which way the props turn. I’m guessing you are looking at Mercruiser engines and sterndrives. To the best of my knowlege, reverse rotating Alpha Ones were not available way back in 1988. I believe the old Volvo 2XX series drives could be made to counter rotate by simply moving the shift linkage. Regards, Jim –

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have looked at buying a 1988 Four Winns, 245 Vista.  It has twin 165 I/O motors.  The owner didn’t seem to know much about it, and I see that it has two right handed props on it.  I suspect he threw them on their for looks, as it’s sitting on a busy road, and I think he wanted to throw some cheap props on it for looks.  Anyway, would 4 Winns, or did 4 Winns, make a twin screw boat where the props did not counter rotate?  Wouldn’t that be kinda’ lame?  Isn’t that part of the reason for desiring a twin screw… to stop the traverse pull from prop rotation? Thanks, Doug

Response:

We were on a water taxi ride in the New River (Ft Lauderdale) and I saw a real nice boat on a lift that didn’t look quite right. The props on twin Mercruiser out drives were both RH, so I guess folks do it.

Response:

We were on a water taxi ride in the New River (Ft Lauderdale) and I saw a real nice boat on a lift that didn’t look quite right. The props on twin Mercruiser out drives were both RH, so I guess folks do it.

But the question is why?  Does a second prop directly behind the first one really give you all that much benefit for the added cost if it doesn’t counter-rotate?  And wouldn’t it take just one more gear in there somewhere to make it counter-rotate? Steve

Response:

I think we are talking about different things. I was referring to two out drives and props going the opposite way. You are referring to two props on the same out drive. I’m with you. I am curious about the benefit of that too. I know the old VTOL "Pogo" airplane did it but that was to keep the plane from spinning on the vertical landing. It seems I only see those dual prop setups on serious "go fast" boats so it must have some performance benefit.

Response:

To the best of my knowledge counter-rotating on the same shaft does the same as counter rotating on seperate shafts…..the whole idea is to counter torque. Naz"T"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think we are talking about different things. I was referring to two out drives and props going the opposite way. You are referring to two props on the same out drive. I’m with you. I am curious about the benefit of that too. I know the old VTOL "Pogo" airplane did it but that was to keep the plane from spinning on the vertical landing. It seems I only see those dual prop setups on serious "go fast" boats so it must have some performance benefit.

Response:

I think we are talking about different things. I was referring to two out drives and props going the opposite way. You are referring to two props on the same out drive. I’m with you. I am curious about the benefit of that too. I know the old VTOL "Pogo" airplane did it but that was to keep the plane from spinning on the vertical landing. It seems I only see those dual prop setups on serious "go fast" boats so it must have some performance benefit.

Yes, we are talking about two different things.  Sawwy.:) Steve

Response:

Fishfinder speedometer question..

Question:

Do they make a combo fish finder/GPS?

Garmin 168

Response:

Kind of an offshoot question.. I have an inexpensive Pirahnna 2 fish-finder.. It works  pretty well, but get going over say 10mph and it’s useless.  It just reads 0.  Is that because it’s made for trolling speeds, looking for fish?  Do depth sounders work at speed?  Or is it just not possible to process the info at high speeds?

Response:

I have a Garmin 160 and it gives me speed indication reliably right up to 40 knots. I suspect your problem will be to do with the placement of the speed sensor. it needs to be in and area that has smooth water flowing past it at all speeds. Is it possible that the sensor lifts out of the water as your boat goes on to the plane? -Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kind of an offshoot question.. I have an inexpensive Pirahnna 2 fish-finder.. It works  pretty well, but get going over say 10mph and it’s useless.  It just reads 0.  Is that because it’s made for trolling speeds, looking for fish? Do depth sounders work at speed?  Or is it just not possible to process the info at high speeds?

Response:

The transducer is not mounted properly. It is either mounted too high, or mounted above a step in the hull.  In either case, the problem is the transducer is not in the water at higher speeds.  Check its location and make sure it is just below the hull in an area where water will be flowing all the time. — Tony http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thomastl1

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kind of an offshoot question.. I have an inexpensive Pirahnna 2 fish-finder.. It works  pretty well, but get going over say 10mph and it’s useless.  It just reads 0.  Is that because it’s made for trolling speeds, looking for fish? Do depth sounders work at speed?  Or is it just not possible to process the info at high speeds?

Response:

Do they make a combo fish finder/GPS? -B

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The speed function gives you a readout of speed and also a trip log of distance traveled based on time and speed.  This is in addition to any speedometer that you have on the boat.  The speed device is a very small paddle wheel that mounts on the back in addition to your pitot for your speedometer.  However, they do not work very well in terms of accuracy compared to a portable $100 GPS which will give you very accurate speed and distance information and can be used in the car as well.  If adjusted properly, the Fishfinder speedo will read at all speeds. — Tony http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thomastl1 A quick question on Fishfinders: I’m thinking about getting a new Fishfinder. Several of the models I’m looking at have a speed function. Will this feature replace/duplicate a standard pitot type boat speedometer, and be useable at any speed from WOT to trolling speed? Currently, I’m looking at the Garmin 240 and the Garmin 240 Blue (has the speed function). Are either of these as good a choice as any for normal lake use on my pontoon boat? I realize that the 240 Blue is a bit of overkill for lake use, but the standard 240 doesn’t have the speed function.                         ….Ed….

Response:

Check out the Garmin website at: http://www.garmin.com/marine/products.html#fishfinders They have a number of combination GPS/Sounders.  I am sure other manufacturers have the same. -Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do they make a combo fish finder/GPS? -B The speed function gives you a readout of speed and also a trip log of distance traveled based on time and speed.  This is in addition to any speedometer that you have on the boat.  The speed device is a very small paddle wheel that mounts on the back in addition to your pitot for your speedometer.  However, they do not work very well in terms of accuracy compared to a portable $100 GPS which will give you very accurate speed and distance information and can be used in the car as well.  If adjusted properly, the Fishfinder speedo will read at all speeds. — Tony http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thomastl1 A quick question on Fishfinders: I’m thinking about getting a new Fishfinder. Several of the models I’m looking at have a speed function. Will this feature replace/duplicate a standard pitot type boat speedometer, and be useable at any speed from WOT to trolling speed? Currently, I’m looking at the Garmin 240 and the Garmin 240 Blue (has the speed function). Are either of these as good a choice as any for normal lake use on my pontoon boat? I realize that the 240 Blue is a bit of overkill for lake use, but the standard 240 doesn’t have the speed function.                         ….Ed….

Response:

My Raytheon L470 has a paddle-wheel device that doesn’t work worth a damn. You’re better off with a GPS. — ROT13 my email address to reply

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A quick question on Fishfinders: I’m thinking about getting a new Fishfinder. Several of the models I’m looking at have a speed function. Will this feature replace/duplicate a standard pitot type boat speedometer, and be useable at any speed from WOT to trolling speed? Currently, I’m looking at the Garmin 240 and the Garmin 240 Blue (has the speed function). Are either of these as good a choice as any for normal lake use on my pontoon boat? I realize that the 240 Blue is a bit of overkill for lake use, but the standard 240 doesn’t have the speed function.                         ….Ed….

Response:

A quick question on Fishfinders: I’m thinking about getting a new Fishfinder. Several of the models I’m looking at have a speed function. Will this feature replace/duplicate a standard pitot type boat speedometer, and be useable at any speed from WOT to trolling speed? Currently, I’m looking at the Garmin 240 and the Garmin 240 Blue (has the speed function). Are either of these as good a choice as any for normal lake use on my pontoon boat? I realize that the 240 Blue is a bit of overkill for lake use, but the standard 240 doesn’t have the speed function.                         ….Ed….

Response:

The speed function gives you a readout of speed and also a trip log of distance traveled based on time and speed.  This is in addition to any speedometer that you have on the boat.  The speed device is a very small paddle wheel that mounts on the back in addition to your pitot for your speedometer.  However, they do not work very well in terms of accuracy compared to a portable $100 GPS which will give you very accurate speed and distance information and can be used in the car as well.  If adjusted properly, the Fishfinder speedo will read at all speeds. — Tony http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thomastl1

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A quick question on Fishfinders: I’m thinking about getting a new Fishfinder. Several of the models I’m looking at have a speed function. Will this feature replace/duplicate a standard pitot type boat speedometer, and be useable at any speed from WOT to trolling speed? Currently, I’m looking at the Garmin 240 and the Garmin 240 Blue (has the speed function). Are either of these as good a choice as any for normal lake use on my pontoon boat? I realize that the 240 Blue is a bit of overkill for lake use, but the standard 240 doesn’t have the speed function.                         ….Ed….

Response:

VDO Sumlog II knotmeter

Question:

Hi Group, I am trying to fix or replace a knotmeter on my Bristol 32. It’s a VDO Sumlog II analog meter. It never reads above 2 knots even when I am doing 7 on the GPS. The calibration pots at the back don’t seem to do anything. I pulled it apart and there doesn’t seem to be anything visibly wrong with it. A couple of years ago I was trying to buy a new depth sounder at West Marine. I wanted to use the transducer that was already in the hull. I asked the sales guy if I could just use the old transducer instead of putting a new one. He said ‘no way’ . It will never work. Well it worked fine. So how about buying a new knotmeter and using the old paddle?… What’s my chances? Thanks for any answers. Jeannette B32 ‘Con te partiro’. San Francisco

Response:

Jennette, As an engineer (ok-marine, but I also worked as and instrument tech on Seawitch) with considerable experience in this area, I will try to help. You pose a problem that is much more complex than I suspect you realize.   There are at least four theories of basic operation for this type of instrument.  I just replaced my old one with a new one, they both have three wires and a paddle wheel and that is as close as they are.  There is a very small possibility that the swap you propose could be successful.  (You did have a much better chance with the depth sounder.)   I will not get started on the lack of an industry standard for the through hull. First off – Are you completely certain that the problem is in the instrument?  The original Sumlog was very wear sensitive. The older ones would get weird with minimal wear.  When the wheel rattled the signal would get ragged and drop out.  I do not have any clue if parts are still available, but I would inspect the paddle wheel and pin before I did anything else.  This also happens to be the cheapest thing to repair if you can get parts.  Unfortunately, it does not exactly describe your condition. Next – If you have a friendly e-tech, you try to involve him/her. (Caution-the author is accessing very old databanks) As I recall the old sumlog was a straight magnetic pickup that was processed F/v (frequency/voltage)in the head.  The original was a v-ramp that was very signal condition fussy.  But, in either case, there are only about a handful of problems in the instrument head that could do the give this condition and most are not hard to repair in an instrument shop.  The electronics of the instrument are real simple by current standards, and they were built from shelf parts (no manufacturer specific chips). The only tough one is that there might be a problem with the meter movement, but even those can be repaired. And you still haven’t had to haul the boat. I wish you the best of luck. Matt Colie A.Sloop "Bonne Ide’e" s2-7.9 #1 Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Perpetual Sailor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Group, I am trying to fix or replace a knotmeter on my Bristol 32. It’s a VDO Sumlog II analog meter. It never reads above 2 knots even when I am doing 7 on the GPS. The calibration pots at the back don’t seem to do anything. I pulled it apart and there doesn’t seem to be anything visibly wrong with it. A couple of years ago I was trying to buy a new depth sounder at West Marine. I wanted to use the transducer that was already in the hull. I asked the sales guy if I could just use the old transducer instead of putting a new one. He said ‘no way’ . It will never work. Well it worked fine. So how about buying a new knotmeter and using the old paddle?… What’s my chances? Thanks for any answers. Jeannette B32 ‘Con te partiro’. San Francisco

Response:

Cruise control for boats? Anyone tried this?

Question:

Anyone tested this? http://www.boatingnews.com/waterskiing.htm

Response:

Anyone tested this? http://www.boatingnews.com/waterskiing.htm

This is a Slalom course specific item, where you need exact times to run the slalom course.  In that element, it works perfectly.  For any other type of boating, its a waste of money.

Response:

Actually, that’s not entirely true anymore. Wakeboarders like straight pulls at a constant speed and most "die hard" boarders are using perfect pass to acomplish this. I’ve read some postings on wakeword where they have been used on I/O’s with great success too. Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone tested this? http://www.boatingnews.com/waterskiing.htm This is a Slalom course specific item, where you need exact times to run the slalom course.  In that element, it works perfectly.  For any other type of boating, its a waste of money.

Response:

Anyone tested this? http://www.boatingnews.com/waterskiing.htm

  I have the Perfect Pass Digital Pro on my Ski Nautique, and I LOVE it!  Best investment I have made.  Mine is a bit more deluxe than I really needed, as I have never even hooked up the timing sensor to get third buoy slalom times.  Of course, that is mainly because there are no ski courses with the required magnets anywhere around where I boat, and my family is more into wakeboarding than slalom.   The greatest feature of the Perfect Pass speed control is that now I can get a decent pull on a wakeboard.  The problem is that the boat does not want to hold a constant speed at the speeds wakeboarders like to ride at.  I can provide a decent pull by focusing on the speed, constantly adjusting the throttle to maintain speed.  It is a chore, but I can hold +/- 1 MPH.  My wife can’t.  When my wife pulls me, the speed varies a LOT.  With the Perfect Pass, I just set my desired speed before I jump in and it takes control, and it will hold speed +/- 0.1 MPH.     Perfect Pass offers two basic modes of operation.  The simple system is to control speed based on engine RPM.  This works well at skiing speeds, but suffers at wakeboard speeds.  The higher priced models include a paddle wheel speed sensor so that it can control based on actual boat speed.  The deluxe version includes a sensor that you fasten to inside of the hull at the water line and it will detect the course magnets located in the first and third buoy.  You set in the speed you want, and it will signal if the run is good or not and recalibrate itself accordingly.  For slalom work it even has correction factors for wind speed and passenger weight (like the girls are really going to tell me how much they weigh!)   Operation is very simple.  Select the mode you want (for me this is usually "wakeboard" mode), set the speed (up/down arrows), press ON. Start your pull as you normally would, you are in full control at this point.  Accelerate up to the desired speed.  Once the boat speed gets within 0.5 MPH of the set speed it BEEPs and takes over.  The speed control works opposite of the cruise control on a car.  On the car, you can always over-ride the control to speed up and pass someone.  On the boat, you can always over-ride to slow down.  When your skier falls, just pull the throttle back.  Once the boat speed has fallen some amount (I think it is 0.5 MPH) from the set point it completely disengages until the boat speed returns to the set point.  Thus, you can circle back to retrieve the fallen skier, idle around, pull him up again and have the control take over again without touching anything.  You can adjust the speed up or down as you are going.   There are a couple of very minor annoyances.  First, I always forget to disengage the speed control after the rider is done.  So I haul the rider into the boat, fire up and start heading back to camp.  Boat gets up to wakeboard speed and the speed control takes over.  Then I have to throttle down, disengage and take off again.     The other annoyance is that the speed control "borrows" a bit of the throttle motion.  Since it can only "slow down" it borrows a bit of the throttle cable motion to give itself something to work with.  As you start up, the speed control starts taking throttle at around 13 MPH.  It feels like a "flat spot" in the throttle response because you give it a bit more throttle, which the speed control takes, and nothing happens with the engine.  When you are used to a smooth throttle operation it throws off your "hit" until you learn to compensate for it.   Of all the features I put in my boat, this is the one I like best. Now I don’t need to pay any attention to the speed, which leaves me a bit of time to watch the skier.  Other than the initial hit, the pull my wife provides is exactly the same as the pull I would provide.     The down side is that everyone wants to ride behind my boat because we have the Perfect Pass…… Rod

Response:

Knotmeter question

Question:

hmmm, maybe the old one is like that.  The new one, however, is all part of the transducer that goes through the thru hull fitting in one piece. My original question, though, is can I attach the wires from the old one, to the new knotmeter, and have reasonable expectations of it working? thanks The knotmeter sending units that I have had or dealt with had a removable paddle wheel assembly. This is so it can be removed and cleaned. I’ve never come across any that could be just pulled out of the through hull fitting. Normally their just held into the through hull with a threaded plastic nut. My experience. FWIW Steve s/v Good Intentions

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Response:

You might also post on rec.boats.cruising   Lots of sailors there. — RichG ( :^) )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have gps and can tell my speed over ground.  There is a 4" hold on the port side of the manway, with glass over it.  Looks empty. I figure, it must have held a knotmeter there, as there is a paddle wheel up front, and a compass on the other side.  The depth meter is under the compass. Since I need the knotmeter there for looks, it might as well work! back to my original question, If I connect the old transducer to the new knotmeter, should I have a reasonable expectation of it working? thanks you could ask about any change in accuracy of the system …. Is accuracy important? or relative speed more important to trimming sails for improved speed? Absolute accuracy will not be correct with a paddle wheel regardless of new versus old …. relative speed may help you obtain your best performance in a race . Your speed over land is what you wish you knew but speed in a current is what you’ll get. Maybe gps is an answer that does not require holes in the hull or do-hickys to clean barnacles off. Best of luck. I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

Response:

I have gps and can tell my speed over ground.  There is a 4" hold on the port side of the manway, with glass over it.  Looks empty. I figure, it must have held a knotmeter there, as there is a paddle wheel up front, and a compass on the other side.  The depth meter is under the compass. Since I need the knotmeter there for looks, it might as well work! back to my original question, If I connect the old transducer to the new knotmeter, should I have a reasonable expectation of it working? thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -you could ask about any change in accuracy of the system …. Is accuracy important? or relative speed more important to trimming sails for improved speed? Absolute accuracy will not be correct with a paddle wheel regardless of new versus old …. relative speed may help you obtain your best performance in a race . Your speed over land is what you wish you knew but speed in a current is what you’ll get. Maybe gps is an answer that does not require holes in the hull or do-hickys to clean barnacles off. Best of luck. I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

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Response:

you could ask about any change in accuracy of the system …. Is accuracy important? or relative speed more important to trimming sails for improved speed? Absolute accuracy will not be correct with a paddle wheel regardless of new versus old …. relative speed may help you obtain your best performance in a race . Your speed over land is what you wish you knew but speed in a current is what you’ll get. Maybe gps is an answer that does not require holes in the hull or do-hickys to clean barnacles off. Best of luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

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Response:

You might also post on rec.boats.cruising   Lots of sailors there. — RichG ( :^) )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have gps and can tell my speed over ground.  There is a 4" hold on the port side of the manway, with glass over it.  Looks empty. I figure, it must have held a knotmeter there, as there is a paddle wheel up front, and a compass on the other side.  The depth meter is under the compass. Since I need the knotmeter there for looks, it might as well work! back to my original question, If I connect the old transducer to the new knotmeter, should I have a reasonable expectation of it working? thanks you could ask about any change in accuracy of the system …. Is accuracy important? or relative speed more important to trimming sails for improved speed? Absolute accuracy will not be correct with a paddle wheel regardless of new versus old …. relative speed may help you obtain your best performance in a race . Your speed over land is what you wish you knew but speed in a current is what you’ll get. Maybe gps is an answer that does not require holes in the hull or do-hickys to clean barnacles off. Best of luck. I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

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Response:

hmmm, maybe the old one is like that.  The new one, however, is all part of the transducer that goes through the thru hull fitting in one piece. My original question, though, is can I attach the wires from the old one, to the new knotmeter, and have reasonable expectations of it working? thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The knotmeter sending units that I have had or dealt with had a removable paddle wheel assembly. This is so it can be removed and cleaned. I’ve never come across any that could be just pulled out of the through hull fitting. Normally their just held into the through hull with a threaded plastic nut. My experience. FWIW Steve s/v Good Intentions

Response:

I have gps and can tell my speed over ground.  There is a 4" hold on the port side of the manway, with glass over it.  Looks empty. I figure, it must have held a knotmeter there, as there is a paddle wheel up front, and a compass on the other side.  The depth meter is under the compass. Since I need the knotmeter there for looks, it might as well work! back to my original question, If I connect the old transducer to the new knotmeter, should I have a reasonable expectation of it working? thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -you could ask about any change in accuracy of the system …. Is accuracy important? or relative speed more important to trimming sails for improved speed? Absolute accuracy will not be correct with a paddle wheel regardless of new versus old …. relative speed may help you obtain your best performance in a race . Your speed over land is what you wish you knew but speed in a current is what you’ll get. Maybe gps is an answer that does not require holes in the hull or do-hickys to clean barnacles off. Best of luck. I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

Response:

I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

Response:

The knotmeter sending units that I have had or dealt with had a removable paddle wheel assembly. This is so it can be removed and cleaned. I’ve never come across any that could be just pulled out of the through hull fitting. Normally their just held into the through hull with a threaded plastic nut. My experience. FWIW Steve s/v Good Intentions

Response:

What I ment to say was "I’ve never come across any that couldn’t be pulled out of the through hull fitting" Steve

Response:

you could ask about any change in accuracy of the system …. Is accuracy important? or relative speed more important to trimming sails for improved speed? Absolute accuracy will not be correct with a paddle wheel regardless of new versus old …. relative speed may help you obtain your best performance in a race . Your speed over land is what you wish you knew but speed in a current is what you’ll get. Maybe gps is an answer that does not require holes in the hull or do-hickys to clean barnacles off. Best of luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I received a new (Smiths Marine Products) Knotmeter for Christmas for use on my 23′ Grampian Sailboat. The transducer has a nylon wheel that spins around, and leads to two wires, which goes to the knotmeter and log. The boat had a knotmeter at one time, and the transducer is still there, leading to two wires. What I would like to know, or have an educated guess, is can I connect the new knotmeter to the old transducer?  This would prevent messing around with the thru the hull fitting in the bottom of the boat. Any educated guesses would be welcome as well (worst scene scenerio, the knotmeter doesn’t work for one season) thanks!

Response:

Dockwater solution…..

Question:

I attended a survey the other day where the subject of city water fittings to pleasure boats came up. Everybody knows the well-touted risk of connecting a waterhose to a boat and leaving the pressure on: The city water pressure might cause a hose to burst or a fitting to come apart and the bilge would then just fill up with drinking water until the boat could, conceivably, sink. The surveyor, Dick Obritz, had recently struck upon an idea that seems extremely practical. He suggested this to a liveaboard boater who was worried that he might accidentally forget to turn off the city water tap when leaving the boat for a while. Dick suggested that one of these lawn sprinkler shut off controls might be plumbed into the supply hose between the dock water tap and the hose fitting on the hull. For those not familiar with the device, it allows a certain number of gallons of water to flow through the control and then shuts down to prevent further flow. Dick suggested that the liveaboard set the sprinkler control for a couple of hundred gallons…..(more than enough for a few days’ use but nowhere nearly enough to get ahead of the bilge pump and sink a fair sized boat)…..and then reset it every few days as the gallonage was used up. This prevents being halfway home from the boat, or halfway to work, and then suddenly feeling as though its essential to turn around and go back to check and see whether the dock water faucet was "really" off or not. While it is of course a better idea to remember to turn the faucet off when leaving the boat, the sprinkler timer trick just might add an extra dimension of security. The timers are mechanical, not electrical, and sell for just a few bucks at the hardware store. Chuck Gould Float and let float.

Response:

I’m thinking a special "marine" baby monitor cover- a GLAD bag made of space age plastic 10 color choices and a quick release feature(tear it open). Ted

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to add it to the list, also selling "marinized" baby monitors so you can hear the alarms on the bridge while you’re sacked out below. Hell, there’s got to be an unlimited amount of cheap things we can sell at expensive prices by calling them "marine." Oh yea, you forgot the term "space age" plastic! How long has THAT been around? LOL. yeah but then it would have to have "marine" or "safety" in the name. How about "Marine Safety Water Management Device" complete with waterproof marine grade washers (space age neoprene) and high impact, breakaway polymer casing!!! GOD, I want one right now!!!! Ted

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s an excellent idea…I’ve seen it before, and have been meaning to get one. I’d procrastinate some more, but maybe I’ll wait ’till tomorrow to think about it… Maybe we could sell a "marinized" version for triple the price! I attended a survey the other day where the subject of city water fittings to pleasure boats came up. Everybody knows the well-touted risk of connecting a waterhose to a boat and leaving the pressure on: The city water pressure might cause a hose to burst or a fitting to come apart and the bilge would then just fill up with drinking water until the boat could, conceivably, sink. The surveyor, Dick Obritz, had recently struck upon an idea that seems extremely practical. He suggested this to a liveaboard boater who was worried that he might accidentally forget to turn off the city water tap when leaving the boat for a while. Dick suggested that one of these lawn sprinkler shut off controls might be plumbed into the supply hose between the dock water tap and the hose fitting on the hull. For those not familiar with the device, it allows a certain number of gallons of water to flow through the control and then shuts down to prevent further flow. Dick suggested that the liveaboard set the sprinkler control for a couple of hundred gallons…..(more than enough for a few days’ use but nowhere nearly enough to get ahead of the bilge pump and sink a fair sized boat)…..and then reset it every few days as the gallonage was used up. This prevents being halfway home from the boat, or halfway to work, and then suddenly feeling as though its essential to turn around and go back to check and see whether the dock water faucet was "really" off or not. While it is of course a better idea to remember to turn the faucet off when leaving the boat, the sprinkler timer trick just might add an extra dimension of security. The timers are mechanical, not electrical, and sell for just a few bucks at the hardware store. Chuck Gould Float and let float. — Keith AI programmers only think they do it — Keith ‘I never met a piece of chocolate I didn’t like.’

Response:

I’m going to add it to the list, also selling "marinized" baby monitors so you can hear the alarms on the bridge while you’re sacked out below. Hell, there’s got to be an unlimited amount of cheap things we can sell at expensive prices by calling them "marine." Oh yea, you forgot the term "space age" plastic! How long has THAT been around? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – LOL. yeah but then it would have to have "marine" or "safety" in the name. How about "Marine Safety Water Management Device" complete with waterproof marine grade washers (space age neoprene) and high impact, breakaway polymer casing!!! GOD, I want one right now!!!! Ted That’s an excellent idea…I’ve seen it before, and have been meaning to get one. I’d procrastinate some more, but maybe I’ll wait ’till tomorrow to think about it… Maybe we could sell a "marinized" version for triple the price! I attended a survey the other day where the subject of city water fittings to pleasure boats came up. Everybody knows the well-touted risk of connecting a waterhose to a boat and leaving the pressure on: The city water pressure might cause a hose to burst or a fitting to come apart and the bilge would then just fill up with drinking water until the boat could, conceivably, sink. The surveyor, Dick Obritz, had recently struck upon an idea that seems extremely practical. He suggested this to a liveaboard boater who was worried that he might accidentally forget to turn off the city water tap when leaving the boat for a while. Dick suggested that one of these lawn sprinkler shut off controls might be plumbed into the supply hose between the dock water tap and the hose fitting on the hull. For those not familiar with the device, it allows a certain number of gallons of water to flow through the control and then shuts down to prevent further flow. Dick suggested that the liveaboard set the sprinkler control for a couple of hundred gallons…..(more than enough for a few days’ use but nowhere nearly enough to get ahead of the bilge pump and sink a fair sized boat)…..and then reset it every few days as the gallonage was used up. This prevents being halfway home from the boat, or halfway to work, and then suddenly feeling as though its essential to turn around and go back to check and see whether the dock water faucet was "really" off or not. While it is of course a better idea to remember to turn the faucet off when leaving the boat, the sprinkler timer trick just might add an extra dimension of security. The timers are mechanical, not electrical, and sell for just a few bucks at the hardware store. Chuck Gould Float and let float. — Keith AI programmers only think they do it

– Keith ‘I never met a piece of chocolate I didn’t like.’

Response:

LOL. yeah but then it would have to have "marine" or "safety" in the name. How about "Marine Safety Water Management Device" complete with waterproof marine grade washers (space age neoprene) and high impact, breakaway polymer casing!!! GOD, I want one right now!!!! Ted

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s an excellent idea…I’ve seen it before, and have been meaning to get one. I’d procrastinate some more, but maybe I’ll wait ’till tomorrow to think about it… Maybe we could sell a "marinized" version for triple the price! I attended a survey the other day where the subject of city water fittings to pleasure boats came up. Everybody knows the well-touted risk of connecting a waterhose to a boat and leaving the pressure on: The city water pressure might cause a hose to burst or a fitting to come apart and the bilge would then just fill up with drinking water until the boat could, conceivably, sink. The surveyor, Dick Obritz, had recently struck upon an idea that seems extremely practical. He suggested this to a liveaboard boater who was worried that he might accidentally forget to turn off the city water tap when leaving the boat for a while. Dick suggested that one of these lawn sprinkler shut off controls might be plumbed into the supply hose between the dock water tap and the hose fitting on the hull. For those not familiar with the device, it allows a certain number of gallons of water to flow through the control and then shuts down to prevent further flow. Dick suggested that the liveaboard set the sprinkler control for a couple of hundred gallons…..(more than enough for a few days’ use but nowhere nearly enough to get ahead of the bilge pump and sink a fair sized boat)…..and then reset it every few days as the gallonage was used up. This prevents being halfway home from the boat, or halfway to work, and then suddenly feeling as though its essential to turn around and go back to check and see whether the dock water faucet was "really" off or not. While it is of course a better idea to remember to turn the faucet off when leaving the boat, the sprinkler timer trick just might add an extra dimension of security. The timers are mechanical, not electrical, and sell for just a few bucks at the hardware store. Chuck Gould Float and let float. — Keith AI programmers only think they do it

Response:

45 psi is nothing…there are areas in San Antonio that register as high as 120 psi. Jeff

Wow!  I never saw a boat hooked to the dock with Pressure Washer hose, before!! larry…

Response:

Downtown Pensacola Fl., had 120 pounds at dock side 10 years ago.  Dont know what it is now. Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -45 psi is nothing…there are areas in San Antonio that register as high as 120 psi.

Response:

Wow!  I never saw a boat hooked to the dock with Pressure Washer hose, before!! larry…

I think we have about 90 here in sea-level MA. 45 PSI and we would be wondering what’s wrong. Not exactly in the pressure washer (1000-4000 PSI) range.

Response:

45 psi is nothing…there are areas in San Antonio that register as high as 120 psi. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell, ol’ Dick we use the ones from Kmart on the docks in Charleston. The "timer" isn’t really a timer.  It’s a paddle wheel that the water flow turns to run the "timer" to zero and shut off the flow.  I got 4 boats on the docks hooked up to them when I heard about it.  Saved one boat, already!  Guy came from Charlotte to his boat and the boat was wet inside.  The timer had run out and shut off the water when the fitting on the bottom of the galley sink broke away.  There’s now a 20PSI pressure regulator between the timer and the dock.  At sea level, the city water pressure is MAXIMUM.  We measured over 45 PSI one day!  RV stores have hose pressure regulators for travel trailers and motorhomes that screw right onto the dock fitting, saving the hose, too! larry….Dockside plumbing is only a sideline…(c;  We’re adding a charcoal and cotton filter to the stack in the spring. City water turns GREEN in a white hose in the hot sun!!

Response:

That’s an excellent idea…I’ve seen it before, and have been meaning to get one. I’d procrastinate some more, but maybe I’ll wait ’till tomorrow to think about it… Maybe we could sell a "marinized" version for triple the price! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I attended a survey the other day where the subject of city water fittings to pleasure boats came up. Everybody knows the well-touted risk of connecting a waterhose to a boat and leaving the pressure on: The city water pressure might cause a hose to burst or a fitting to come apart and the bilge would then just fill up with drinking water until the boat could, conceivably, sink. The surveyor, Dick Obritz, had recently struck upon an idea that seems extremely practical. He suggested this to a liveaboard boater who was worried that he might accidentally forget to turn off the city water tap when leaving the boat for a while. Dick suggested that one of these lawn sprinkler shut off controls might be plumbed into the supply hose between the dock water tap and the hose fitting on the hull. For those not familiar with the device, it allows a certain number of gallons of water to flow through the control and then shuts down to prevent further flow. Dick suggested that the liveaboard set the sprinkler control for a couple of hundred gallons…..(more than enough for a few days’ use but nowhere nearly enough to get ahead of the bilge pump and sink a fair sized boat)…..and then reset it every few days as the gallonage was used up. This prevents being halfway home from the boat, or halfway to work, and then suddenly feeling as though its essential to turn around and go back to check and see whether the dock water faucet was "really" off or not. While it is of course a better idea to remember to turn the faucet off when leaving the boat, the sprinkler timer trick just might add an extra dimension of security. The timers are mechanical, not electrical, and sell for just a few bucks at the hardware store. Chuck Gould Float and let float.

– Keith AI programmers only think they do it

Response:

Tell, ol’ Dick we use the ones from Kmart on the docks in Charleston. The "timer" isn’t really a timer.  It’s a paddle wheel that the water flow turns to run the "timer" to zero and shut off the flow.  I got 4 boats on the docks hooked up to them when I heard about it.  Saved one boat, already!  Guy came from Charlotte to his boat and the boat was wet inside.  The timer had run out and shut off the water when the fitting on the bottom of the galley sink broke away.  There’s now a 20PSI pressure regulator between the timer and the dock.  At sea level, the city water pressure is MAXIMUM.  We measured over 45 PSI one day!  RV stores have hose pressure regulators for travel trailers and motorhomes that screw right onto the dock fitting, saving the hose, too! larry….Dockside plumbing is only a sideline…(c;  We’re adding a charcoal and cotton filter to the stack in the spring. City water turns GREEN in a white hose in the hot sun!!

Response:

Boat Speedometer

Question:

Hello All, I have now had my new boat out four times.  I must have at least 10 hours on the engine by now.  First, recently there have been a number of posts about FICHT and OPTIMAX.  I have a 200 Optimax on my Ranger R93VS, and I like it very much.  I have only had it WOT about four times, as it will just go too fast.  Today I played around with RPM and Trim settings.  Here are the results, based on the speedometer in the boat. half way up motor) rooster tail) If I WOT motor, I can get 78 MPH with trim as stated above.  My question is how accurate are the Speedometers in the boats.  I really would like to have a GPS, so I can get Speed over the ground, but I cannot afford it now, because of gas prices.  Does anyone know how much error is in those units built in.  The boat is 19′8" long and with me and all my gear I guess I am around 2800 – 3000 lbs.  Oh, I fill the live wells, as the boat seems more stable when up on pad, so I am carrying 25 gallons of water which weight’s around 200 lbs. Any information would be appreciated. Sincerely, Monty Bonner P. S. Did not catch any fish, water in main river (Columbia River) where I put in and boated around was 44-47.  The backwater bay I fished in was 43.5-44.7.  Go figure.  It still was a great day to be out on the water.

Response:

Hi I have a relatively new Quicksilver speedo on my boat, fitted to a 150 Mariner EFi, and it over reads nearly 10% at 60mph, that is compared to my GPS’s speed readout…. Many depth finders (like the Garmin 160) can be equipped with a speed sensor and perhaps this may be a cheaper way to achieve more accuracy… The speed sensors I have seen use a kind of paddle wheel, and my gut feel is that it would be more accurate than a standard boat speedo which works on simple water pressure. — Cole Myers Zimbabwe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All, I have now had my new boat out four times.  I must have at least 10 hours on the engine by now.  First, recently there have been a number of posts about FICHT and OPTIMAX.  I have a 200 Optimax on my Ranger R93VS, and I like it very much.  I have only had it WOT about four times, as it will just go too fast.  Today I played around with RPM and Trim settings.  Here are the results, based on the speedometer in the boat. half way up motor) rooster tail) If I WOT motor, I can get 78 MPH with trim as stated above.  My question is how accurate are the Speedometers in the boats.  I really would like to have a GPS, so I can get Speed over the ground, but I cannot afford it now, because of gas prices.  Does anyone know how much error is in those units built in.  The boat is 19′8" long and with me and all my gear I guess I am around 2800 – 3000 lbs.  Oh, I fill the live wells, as the boat seems more stable when up on pad, so I am carrying 25 gallons of water which weight’s around 200 lbs. Any information would be appreciated. Sincerely, Monty Bonner P. S. Did not catch any fish, water in main river (Columbia River) where I put in and boated around was 44-47.  The backwater bay I fished in was 43.5-44.7.  Go figure.  It still was a great day to be out on the water.

Response:

Duoprops are they worth it ?

Question:

 I shudder to think what that unit will cost if it needs major repairing. The bill I’ve got for repairing my Mercruiser TR drive is just under $6,000.  Mercruiser is not always cheaper than Volvo.  A full replacement for my outdrive is $8,200. Just thought I would throw that in for comparison purposes. I’m replacing the single prop as well. Luckily it is pretty cheap at less then $200. — Mark Kovalcson http://www.perfectpull.com Waterski Training Equipment

Response:

"Karen" points out a very important consideration: serviceability and replacement part cost. One of the main advantages of the venerable Chevies and Merc’s, has been their affordability. This certainly includes repairs, for those of us who can’t afford to buy new. Actually, even those who buy new should consider repair cost… I hate nothing worse than getting burned for a $80 to buy a $25 part. Common problem. – Lifespeed * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Just my opinion.  I have a duoprop and everyone tells me it is much better "out of the hole" although I have not had a Merc to able to tell the difference. Two things I do know about Volvo from personal experience: 1.  Don’t even think about taking off the unit.  I looked in the manual on how to get to even the simplest of things like the hydraulic hoses to the lift cylinders and it requires taking off the outdrive which is no easy task.  With a Merc, you remove 4 nuts and pull the unit off!  Granted, easier to steal, but I am considering the service instead. 2.  You will find out real quick what the term "German engineering"

That part of Sweden isn’t IN Germany (-: R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – means when you go to buy replacement parts.  Volvo has this great thing going where you can’t even buy an aftermarket dup prop unless you buy it directly from them.  You want to guess what the difference in price is when they are the "sole" source?  Another perfect example, The pump for the power trim went out.  Volvo price;  over $700! Comparable price for a Merc trim pump is around $150 to $200. Now, with all this said, they tell me that my unit is virtually indistructable.  That’s fine, and I have nothing negative to say about the performance or the quality, however, I have just heard that in Lake Erie (Buffalo NY), this year the water level will be the shallowest in 30 years.  Last year was very bad too.  Before you say It’s my own fault if I hit something, I agree and I take all the precautions but accidents do happen.  I shudder to think what that unit will cost if it needs major repairing. Finally, my next boat will almost assuredly have a Merc Bravo III outdrive if I can match up what I need.  The boat I own now is a Sunrunner 238 Classic with a 305 Chevy and the duo prop. Make sure you check out all these things for yourself.  Don’t take my opinon. I am posting as 3 separate mails as I have 3 separate questions. No. 2 For inshore use – skiing, kneeboarding.  - This second question is if for example I went for a 4.3L EFI engine is it worth paying extra to get the duoprop drive ?  what advantages do these give, are they serious advantages on 20′ (or less) hulls ? Rick

Response:

You know the fastest & quickest boats ever tested in Waterski Mag’s ski boat — http://airjunky.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just my opinion.  I have a duoprop and everyone tells me it is much better "out of the hole" although I have not had a Merc to able to tell the difference. Two things I do know about Volvo from personal experience: 1.  Don’t even think about taking off the unit.  I looked in the manual on how to get to even the simplest of things like the hydraulic hoses to the lift cylinders and it requires taking off the outdrive which is no easy task.  With a Merc, you remove 4 nuts and pull the unit off!  Granted, easier to steal, but I am considering the service instead. 2.  You will find out real quick what the term "German engineering" That part of Sweden isn’t IN Germany (-: R means when you go to buy replacement parts.  Volvo has this great thing going where you can’t even buy an aftermarket dup prop unless you buy it directly from them.  You want to guess what the difference in price is when they are the "sole" source?  Another perfect example, The pump for the power trim went out.  Volvo price;  over $700! Comparable price for a Merc trim pump is around $150 to $200. Now, with all this said, they tell me that my unit is virtually indistructable.  That’s fine, and I have nothing negative to say about the performance or the quality, however, I have just heard that in Lake Erie (Buffalo NY), this year the water level will be the shallowest in 30 years.  Last year was very bad too.  Before you say It’s my own fault if I hit something, I agree and I take all the precautions but accidents do happen.  I shudder to think what that unit will cost if it needs major repairing. Finally, my next boat will almost assuredly have a Merc Bravo III outdrive if I can match up what I need.  The boat I own now is a Sunrunner 238 Classic with a 305 Chevy and the duo prop. Make sure you check out all these things for yourself.  Don’t take my opinon. I am posting as 3 separate mails as I have 3 separate questions. No. 2 For inshore use – skiing, kneeboarding.  - This second question is if for example I went for a 4.3L EFI engine is it worth paying extra to get the duoprop drive ?  what advantages do these give, are they serious advantages on 20′ (or less) hulls ? Rick

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2.  You will find out real quick what the term "German engineering" means when you go to buy replacement parts.  Volvo has this great

I think you mean Swedish engineering. Steve — / / / / / / http://www.averstar.com/customers/maritime.html

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Not worth MY money, but I have an inboard and they’re not available for that anyway. A friend has a 22 or so ft platform boat with duoprops behind a 502 engine,  HE dislikes the repair cost of TWO props every time he hits them, they’re not cheap to get fixed, only a few people seem to have the "blocks" for them, so there’s the hassle factor – at least in THIS area. So many other spending opportunities for that much money (-: FWIW, etc. R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am posting as 3 separate mails as I have 3 separate questions. No. 2 For inshore use – skiing, kneeboarding.  - This second question is if for example I went for a 4.3L EFI engine is it worth paying extra to get the duoprop drive ?  what advantages do these give, are they serious advantages on 20′ (or less) hulls ? Rick

Response:

Just my opinion.  I have a duoprop and everyone tells me it is much better "out of the hole" although I have not had a Merc to able to tell the difference.   Two things I do know about Volvo from personal experience: 1.  Don’t even think about taking off the unit.  I looked in the manual on how to get to even the simplest of things like the hydraulic hoses to the lift cylinders and it requires taking off the outdrive which is no easy task.  With a Merc, you remove 4 nuts and pull the unit off!  Granted, easier to steal, but I am considering the service instead. 2.  You will find out real quick what the term "German engineering" means when you go to buy replacement parts.  Volvo has this great thing going where you can’t even buy an aftermarket dup prop unless you buy it directly from them.  You want to guess what the difference in price is when they are the "sole" source?  Another perfect example, The pump for the power trim went out.  Volvo price;  over $700! Comparable price for a Merc trim pump is around $150 to $200. Now, with all this said, they tell me that my unit is virtually indistructable.  That’s fine, and I have nothing negative to say about the performance or the quality, however, I have just heard that in Lake Erie (Buffalo NY), this year the water level will be the shallowest in 30 years.  Last year was very bad too.  Before you say It’s my own fault if I hit something, I agree and I take all the precautions but accidents do happen.  I shudder to think what that unit will cost if it needs major repairing. Finally, my next boat will almost assuredly have a Merc Bravo III outdrive if I can match up what I need.  The boat I own now is a Sunrunner 238 Classic with a 305 Chevy and the duo prop. Make sure you check out all these things for yourself.  Don’t take my opinon. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am posting as 3 separate mails as I have 3 separate questions. No. 2 For inshore use – skiing, kneeboarding.  - This second question is if for example I went for a 4.3L EFI engine is it worth paying extra to get the duoprop drive ?  what advantages do these give, are they serious advantages on 20′ (or less) hulls ? Rick

Response:

I am posting as 3 separate mails as I have 3 separate questions. No. 2 For inshore use – skiing, kneeboarding.  - This second question is if for example I went for a 4.3L EFI engine is it worth paying extra to get the duoprop drive ?  what advantages do these give, are they serious advantages on 20′ (or less) hulls ? Rick

Response:

{in regard to Duo Prop outdrives} For inshore use – skiing, kneeboarding.  - This second question is if for example I went for a 4.3L EFI engine is it worth paying extra to get the duoprop drive ?  what advantages do these give, are they serious advantages on 20′ (or less) hulls ? Rick

The big advantages of Duo Prop and Bravo III outdrives are a lot of bite to help with hole shots and the reduction of torque steer and paddle wheel walk at low speeds.  The counter rotating blades (adapted from torpedo technology to keep teh fish from spinning in the water) negate these effects so when you give it gas you have less stern motion and a very straight track at speed.  Gee, if we had steam based engines and a warhead we could really take care of that guy crossing in front of us! <grin. Yes I think it is worth paying the extra money, but that is just my opinion.  The 4.3 seems a little small to be turning a Duo Prop setup (would think the 5.7’s and 7.4’s are better suited) but if the manufacturer has it tuned for such a fit, then guess they know what they are doing! Scott Have a boating question?  Have boating advice? The Novice Boater Resources http://www.lisaandscott.com/NoviceBoating.htm

Response:

St. John River system

Question:

I am planning to cruise up into the Bay of Fundy this summer. Has anyone had experience on the St. John River to Fredericton, New Brunswick? Any assisstance would be of great help. Thanks

Response:

I haven’t done it yet, but I hear it’s a great trip.  The river is wide, with lots of marinas along the way.  Are you power or sail? — Jim Thompson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning to cruise up into the Bay of Fundy this summer. Has anyone had experience on the St. John River to Fredericton, New Brunswick? Any assisstance would be of great help. Thanks

Response:

Nicholas Tracy’s "A Cruising Guide to the Bay of Fundy" is a good beginning text for this area.  Also search this newsgroup on Deja, since this topic has been covered in depth here a number of times. Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat (remove ‘BOAT’) http://kerrydeare.tripod.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "WNautical" wrote … I am planning to cruise up into the Bay of Fundy this summer. Has anyone had experience on the St. John River to Fredericton, New Brunswick?

Response:

I am planning to cruise up into the Bay of Fundy this summer. Has anyone had experience on the St. John River to Fredericton, New Brunswick? Any assisstance would be of great help. Thanks

Yes I did it back in the early 80s. It is a great trip. Plan your passage thru the reversing falls at slack water. We had a local CG officer ride thru with us on the up trip as a guide.  We had a clearance issue under the bridge. Other than that it was a stress less and scenic trip with daily stops and sightseeing while under way. Mundo "The captain who is a bully and an ass"

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I live on Belleisle Bay…right off the Saint John river..very beautiful area…lots of sandy beaches… excellent sailing…good services… the Kenebecassis river joins the Saint John..Very deep and wide river…lots to see  45 – 50% exchange rate!!…c’mon up!!… hey ..i’ll be your personal guide!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am planning to cruise up into the Bay of Fundy this summer. Has anyone had experience on the St. John River to Fredericton, New Brunswick? Any assisstance would be of great help. Thanks

Response:

I am planning to cruise up into the Bay of Fundy this summer. Has anyone had experience on the St. John River to Fredericton, New Brunswick? Any assisstance would be of great help. Thanks

It used to be that the St John was the reward for the work you had to do to get there, in the days before gps. The relevant issue is fog, not in the river system but in the Bay of Fundy on your way. Be prepared for it. Depending on your size and speed, tide becomes an issue as well, especially if you like to sail rather than power. East of Schoodic you need to begin to plan your sailing according to the tide, which flows east on the flood and west on the ebb. From Grand Manan on in the tide will double your speed or reduce it to nothing, so you need to take it into account. The reversing falls themselves are not as dramatic as they are sometimes written up (although the first time I went through at 2 in the morning in a storm with the putrid lights and smells and foam from the paper mill soiling a beautiful Concordia, it felt like the gates of hell). Taft’s Cruising Guide to the Maine Coast now covers the St. John, and is a good guide for the rest of your trip as well. Have fun. Jesse Deupree F27 ION Portland Maine

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We’re Chesapeake-based sailors who love the Maine coast so much we left our boat in Camden for the winter.  Last summer we got as far as Cutler; this summer we’re planning to visit the St. John River, which sounds wonderful.  My only reservation has to do with provisioning — how difficult is it to find ice, water, groceries, and diesel fuel once you’re in the river? Thanks!  Bill Wachter Before you buy.

Response:

We’re Chesapeake-based sailors who love the Maine coast so much we left our boat in Camden for the winter.  Last summer we got as far as Cutler; this summer we’re planning to visit the St. John River, which sounds wonderful.  My only reservation has to do with provisioning — how difficult is it to find ice, water, groceries, and diesel fuel once you’re in the river? Thanks!  Bill Wachter Before you buy.

I don’t think you’ll have any difficulties, although some parts are remote. I think new editions of the Taft Cruising Guide are the best source of info. If you can find an Irving Store (and you WILL find an Irving Store- they own the province and that is barely an exaggeration) they will deliver. Don’t put so much effort into the St. John that you skip Grand Manan or Passamaquoddy Bay. The sail down the back side of Grand Manan at high tide is wonderful and Federal Harbor (way up in Cobscook) is a treat. Head Harbor on Campobello is a good way station (and then you can thrill your friends by knowing why WEST Quoddy Head is the EASTernmost point in the US). Jesse Deupree F27 ION Portland Maine The St Lawrence/Saguanay is my goal for the summer- August 20 when the big French open 60 tris are rolling by.

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There are a few full service marinas especially near Saint John..all along the river are old concrete warfs..still in good shape were the old paddle wheel river boats made their stops, usually within walking distance is an ‘Irving’ or other store that has everything including diesel..and the prices are very reasonable…just noticed diesel was up to 73.9 cents per liter..ouch! thats Canadian though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We’re Chesapeake-based sailors who love the Maine coast so much we left our boat in Camden for the winter.  Last summer we got as far as Cutler; this summer we’re planning to visit the St. John River, which sounds wonderful.  My only reservation has to do with provisioning — how difficult is it to find ice, water, groceries, and diesel fuel once you’re in the river? Thanks!  Bill Wachter Before you buy.

Response:

Antifouling for through hulls.

Question:

Does anyone know of a good anti fouling treatment to keep knotmeter paddle wheels from getting stuck. Where I keep my boat, in Lake Ontario, weeds and zebra mussels are the main culprits. I cannot remove the paddle wheel for cleaning as it is in an almost inaccessible place in the keel. I know that most conventional antifouling paints contain copper which interferes with the sending unit. Most others seem to be banned substances due to environmental laws.

Response:

Dive down with a putty knife and some burlap. No joke.  It works.

Response:

I am salt water sailor, so I cannot advice on what antifoul to use. But I paint my paddle wheel log sender each year for similar reasons… BTW, I have not found that cupper based paint will give any trouble *in practice*. I am sure that someone will explain why it would for theoretical reasons. But here is how I do it: I don’t even bother with removing the paddle wheel. The paint is the ordinary bottom paint I use (Micron CSC, ablative), a little thinned with the recommended thinner for the product. Then it is aquestion of painting and spinning, until the wheel spin free and is coatet as much as possible. Being ablative, it will dissapear at some time in the future, but I haul my boat each autumn anyway. For a boat that is in the water for longer time, I would use a hard antifouling. As for legality, I won’t comment, but in practice, the illegal antifoulings can probably be used without much troubled conscience – the paddle wheel is so small and what small amount of unwanted substances will leak out from that very small area is completely insignificant even in sensitive areas. A very small can (1/3 of a liter) will last you for a lifetime. (the paint may have a shorter life than you, so don’t panic). There is even (on some markets) special antifouling paint, intended (and allowed) for use on aluminium OB drives – where cupper is a real killer – not only for weeds. That might be an alternative, even if you have to smuggle it into the country  :-) Anders Vern Denholm skrev: Does anyone know of a good anti fouling treatment to keep knotmeter paddle wheels from getting stuck. Where I keep my boat, in Lake Ontario, weeds and zebra mussels are the main culprits. I cannot remove the paddle wheel for cleaning as it is in an almost inaccessible place in the keel. I know that most conventional antifouling paints contain copper which interferes with the sending unit. Most others seem to be banned substances due to environmental laws.

– Anders Svensson

Response:

Does anyone know of a good anti fouling treatment to keep knotmeter paddle wheels from getting stuck. I cannot remove the paddle wheel for cleaning as it is in an almost inaccessible place in the keel.

A lot of cruisers have the same problem. The compartment that the paddle is in is full of stuf and it is to much trouble to move it so it won’t get wet. They now use there gps. They leave it on all the time so you can check speed when you want. Dick S/V Morning Star member.aol.com/seabusines Dick S/V Morning Star members.aol.com/seabusines

Response:

I suggest that after painting with appropriate bottom paint, you apply a thick coat of teflon grease.  This works for me in Chesapeake Bay.   Dick Miller S/V EVOLUTION – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know of a good anti fouling treatment to keep knotmeter paddle wheels from getting stuck. Where I keep my boat, in Lake Ontario, weeds and zebra mussels are the main culprits. I cannot remove the paddle wheel for cleaning as it is in an almost inaccessible place in the keel. I know that most conventional antifouling paints contain copper which interferes with the sending unit. Most others seem to be banned substances due to environmental laws.

Response:

Does anyone know of a good anti fouling treatment to keep knotmeter paddle wheels from getting stuck. Where I keep my boat, in Lake Ontario, weeds and zebra mussels are the main culprits. I cannot remove the paddle wheel for cleaning as it is in an almost inaccessible place in the keel. I know that most conventional antifouling paints contain copper which interferes with the sending unit. Most others seem to be banned substances due to environmental laws.

I bought a small jar of antifouling made for this purpose (called transducer antifouling- bought mine at West Marine) It came in a jar with an integral brush, is black in color and suitable for plastic, and thin enough to easily apply to paddle wheels and transduers. Its worked fine for me for three years. Jesse Deupree F27 ION Portland Maine

Response:

I bought the same little bottle of transducer paint and used it on my knotmeter and depth sounder tranducer.  It lasted three months on the knot meter paddlewheel in the mid-Chesapeake Bay.  When I removed the paddlewheel, it was so TOTALLY fouled that I think I would have been better off using nothing.,…

Response:

I know this sounds nutty, but we noticed that places where people had written on the hulls with black Marks-a-lot markers never fouled. You might try coloring your through hulls with one of these. If you want to try it out first, get a piece of scrap, color it with the Marks-a-lot, and hang it in the water for a few weeks/months. Don’t know if the brand matters, but other markers may work too. Also, desitin baby ointment has been effective for static applications, but I imagine it would wash off pretty quickly from a moving hull. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I bought the same little bottle of transducer paint and used it on my knotmeter and depth sounder tranducer.  It lasted three months on the knot meter paddlewheel in the mid-Chesapeake Bay.  When I removed the paddlewheel, it was so TOTALLY fouled that I think I would have been better off using nothing.,…

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