Canoe pontoons?
Question:
How large of a sinker do you need to troll at 40 mph? I’ll let you know in a couple of years, but from what they reckon, 20mph +full flap + 30%power = fly at 20mph – 20mph headwind = 0mph ground speed
Yeah, but do the big ones bite on a windy day?
Response:
But hey, and here I’m almost serious again: could a pontoon be made that would fly well, plane well — and work *upside down* as a better hull for a catamaran? As has been pointed out, an aviation pontoon hull would make a lousy boat hull, and vice versa. But might the *top* of a good aviation pontoon also be a good hull shape for a cat?
Maybe. But either you sit astride it (using the step as back support?) or else you cut a hole in the surface that’s in the water on takeoff and landing. Inflatable boat and a pump, anyone?
Response:
Full Lotus made inflatable floats. Use those, catamaran style, or just use one float and an outrigger. Or just buy a Coot, Osprey, Kingfisher, etc., and stick a trolling motor over the side. RN
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aircraft floats are designed the way they are for a critical purpose and it would be difficult indeed to come up with something much different that might still work. Looks like there’s agreement on that. Hokay, then, would any respectable homebuilt pontoon be capable of doubling as some kind of canoe? Granted, we still have the problem that a canoe is generally wide open, whereas a pontoon that’s wide open is ill-advised. Perhaps a kayak design, where a simple hole in the middle of the pontoon could be easily covered, might work — provided a pontoon would be seaworthy (why do I have this nagging sense it would just tip over no matter what you tried to do with it). Thanks to all for responding to an idea that I agree borders on the nonsensical. I’ll skip asking wether using a prop as a canoe paddle would eliminate the need to j-stroke. 
– Scott
Response:
But hey, and here I’m almost serious again: could a pontoon be made that would fly well, plane well — and work *upside down* as a better hull for a catamaran? As has been pointed out, an aviation pontoon hull would make a lousy boat hull, and vice versa. But might the *top* of a good aviation pontoon also be a good hull shape for a cat? Maybe. But either you sit astride it (using the step as back support?) or else you cut a hole in the surface that’s in the water on takeoff and landing. Inflatable boat and a pump, anyone?
No, for a cat you just use three frame pieces and stretch some fine mesh nylon webbing across the open area for a deck. See, it’s more practical than you thought. ;-) – Scott
Response:
Maybe. But either you sit astride it (using the step as back support?) or else you cut a hole in the surface that’s in the water on takeoff and landing. No, for a cat you just use three frame pieces and stretch some fine mesh nylon webbing across the open area for a deck. See, it’s more practical than you thought. ;-)
Ah – missed the cat part. So….how do you propose to attach the frame to the upended pontoon?
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Ah – missed the cat part. So….how do you propose to attach the frame to the upended pontoon?
I can think of a couple ways of doing it — both of which would add a small amount of weight. What I’d hope is that the frame pieces needed could double as structural support for the pontoons when mounted on the plane, modifying traditonal mounting of pontoons a bit. Heck, take off a wing and use it as a sail {since I’m on a roll with this; heck, when you get in deep there’s no sense coming out the way you got in; there’s gotta be another exit somewhere Just don’t ask me how I’d mount *that*. And don’t ask me how I’d license the thing as both an airplane and a boat! – Scott
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Yeah, but do the big ones bite on a windy day?
Don’t know yet, but you get a pretty good view from above the water so you can go where you can see the fish…… Maybe I’ll try spear fishing! Stuka style! Peter
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I dunno…. p-factor, torque, and spiraling slipstream could all have an effect to eliminate the need for the j-stroke if you stroke only from the left side of the canoe, but ONLY if you use a propellor as a paddle…… If you use a paddle for a propellor make sure you feather it on the forward part of the stroke…..
Indeed, however, if you intend to use a propellor from an eastern european aircraft such as a Yakolev 52 please be advised that everything you recommended is the same but in reverse..and of course the canoe would also have to be upside down… gpa
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Aircraft floats are designed the way they are for a critical purpose and it would be difficult indeed to come up with something much different that might still work. Looks like there’s agreement on that. Hokay, then, would any respectable homebuilt pontoon be capable of doubling as some kind of canoe? Granted, we still have the problem that a canoe is generally wide open, whereas a pontoon that’s wide open is ill-advised. Perhaps a kayak design, where a simple hole in the middle of the pontoon could be easily covered, might work — provided a pontoon would be seaworthy (why do I have this nagging sense it would just tip over no matter what you tried to do with it).
pontoons _are_ top-heavy, *by*design*. However, I see no reason, why you couldn’t carry a couple of small ‘outriggers’ to deal with _that_ problem. Thanks to all for responding to an idea that I agree borders on the nonsensical. I’ll skip asking wether using a prop as a canoe paddle would eliminate the need to j-stroke.
Depends, is it fixed or variable pitch ?? <chortle
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I dunno…. p-factor, torque, and spiraling slipstream could all have an effect to eliminate the need for the j-stroke if you stroke only from the left side of the canoe, but ONLY if you use a propellor as a paddle…… If you use a paddle for a propellor make sure you feather it on the forward part of the stroke….. Indeed, however, if you intend to use a propellor from an eastern european aircraft such as a Yakolev 52 please be advised that everything you recommended is the same but in reverse..and of course the canoe would also have to be upside down…
Nah, just in Australia.
Response:
However, I see no reason, why you couldn’t carry a couple of small ‘outriggers’ to deal with _that_ problem.
To heck with canoes — how about using both pontoons as a catamaran? Add a sail. Or heck, use the plane’s seats too, and contrive a paddle-boat. Put some hydroplanes under the pontoons. Solve world hunger. Get toast to land butter side up. And so forth. Is there any homebuilt in existence that could double as a bass boat? Or, of course, is there any bass boat etc. – Scott "but seriously, folks" Marquardt
Response:
However, I see no reason, why you couldn’t carry a couple of small ‘outriggers’ to deal with _that_ problem. To heck with canoes — how about using both pontoons as a catamaran?
Not unreasonable, if your design criteria is ‘big and slow’. just add decking between the two floats, and hang a *big* outboard on the back. For something ‘people-powered’, the drag of two pontoons is excessive, to the point of impracticality, . Add a sail. Or heck, use the plane’s seats too, and contrive a paddle-boat. Put some hydroplanes under the pontoons. Solve world hunger. Get toast to land butter side up. And so forth. Is there any homebuilt in existence that could double as a bass boat? Or, of course, is there any bass boat etc.
I dunno about bass; baritone, maybe, alto, almost definitely.
Response:
However, I see no reason, why you couldn’t carry a couple of small ‘outriggers’ to deal with _that_ problem. To heck with canoes — how about using both pontoons as a catamaran? Not unreasonable, if your design criteria is ‘big and slow’. just add decking between the two floats, and hang a *big* outboard on the back. For something ‘people-powered’, the drag of two pontoons is excessive, to the point of impracticality, .
Speaking of impracticality, since I’m already taking the plane apart to sail pieces of it inefficiently around in the water, I reckon I might as well relieve the plane of its engine as well, for use as the power for this catamaran. By the time I’m done, of course, folks’ll wonder why I didn’t just troll about in the plane in the first place. But hey, and here I’m almost serious again: could a pontoon be made that would fly well, plane well — and work *upside down* as a better hull for a catamaran? As has been pointed out, an aviation pontoon hull would make a lousy boat hull, and vice versa. But might the *top* of a good aviation pontoon also be a good hull shape for a cat? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Add a sail. Or heck, use the plane’s seats too, and contrive a paddle-boat. Put some hydroplanes under the pontoons. Solve world hunger. Get toast to land butter side up. And so forth. Is there any homebuilt in existence that could double as a bass boat? Or, of course, is there any bass boat etc. I dunno about bass; baritone, maybe, alto, almost definitely.
Response:
Has anyone done it? I did the obligatory google search, and found nothing in 20 seconds (so it must not exist, right? Obviously, though, I’m not the first idiot to think of it. I’d like to see a light plane with canoes for pontoons. There’d be vertical tubes that would drop down (think a pickup truck camper’s vertical supports for when you don’t have the pickup under it), so you could taxi to shore, jack down the tubes (broad plates on the bottoms for mud?), and detach the canoes. Go fishing for the day, then re-attach the canoes, jack up the tubes and take off. Am I nuts? I suppose someone’s going to tell me that it’d be easier to convert a pontoon to something that could double as an inefficient canoe. ;-D The big hazard is an obvious one, but what the heck. There’s gotta be a way. – Scott
Response:
I’d like to see a light plane with canoes for pontoons. Am I nuts?
Beats me, but why don’t you contact Jesse James from the TV show Monster Garage and ask him to consider a conversion as one of the show’s projects.
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I’d like to see a light plane with canoes for pontoons. Am I nuts? Beats me, but why don’t you contact Jesse James from the TV show Monster Garage and ask him to consider a conversion as one of the show’s projects.
No, for them I’d suggest trying to get one of these to fly: http://www.zorb.com/thumbnails.htm – Scott
Response:
I’d like to see a light plane with canoes for pontoons. There’d be vertical tubes that would drop down (think a pickup truck camper’s vertical supports for when you don’t have the pickup under it), so you could taxi to shore, jack down the tubes (broad plates on the bottoms for mud?), and detach the canoes. Go fishing for the day, then re-attach the canoes, jack up the tubes and take off.
IIRC, many folks just lash a regular canoe to the floats. Best of both worlds, there…. Ron Wanttaja
Response:
Has anyone done it? I did the obligatory google search, and found nothing in 20 seconds (so it must not exist, right? Obviously, though, I’m not the first idiot to think of it.
Nope, you’re not. 8^) Idiot is a stronger term than I would have used, though. I’d like to see a light plane with canoes for pontoons. There’d be vertical tubes that would drop down (think a pickup truck camper’s vertical supports for when you don’t have the pickup under it), so you could taxi to shore, jack down the tubes (broad plates on the bottoms for mud?), and detach the canoes. Go fishing for the day, then re- attach the canoes, jack up the tubes and take off.
The main problem is that a canoe is a displacement hull, while you need the pontoons to be planing hulls with a step. As I understand it, the faster you push a displacement hull, the further into the water it wants to dig, until it reaches its hull speed, which is the fastest you can make it go. A planing hull is designed specifically to ride (plane) on top of the water’s surface at high speed, which will allow you to reach a suitable speed for takeoff. The "step" allows the hull to rise further out of the water than if the entire bottom surface was flat, decreasing drag so that you can get off the water. By the time you modified the canoes to act as planing hulls and added a step, there wouldn’t be much of the original metal left. Probably easier to start from scratch. Am I nuts? I suppose someone’s going to tell me that it’d be easier to convert a pontoon to something that could double as an inefficient canoe. ;-D
Even if it were possible, you wouldn’t want to try to remove a float in the field. Normally, when aircraft are switched between floats and wheels a large hoist or crane is used to raise it high enough in the air. If you are content with an inefficient canoe, carry an inflatable and folding paddles with your baggage. You should always have a paddle in your floatplane anyhow. Alternately, lots of canoes are carried as external loads on float rigging, if your plane is big enough. Beware, a buddy of mine who flies floats says external loads can do goofy things to the handling qualities/performance. Del Rawlins- Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website: http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Response:
I plan on building a Storch so I can go fishing out the window, ’cause I get seasick, but I don’t get airsick! ;<) Peter
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I plan on building a Storch so I can go fishing out the window, ’cause I get seasick, but I don’t get airsick! ;<) Peter
How large of a sinker do you need to troll at 40 mph? Rich S.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone done it? I did the obligatory google search, and found nothing in 20 seconds (so it must not exist, right? Obviously, though, I’m not the first idiot to think of it. I’d like to see a light plane with canoes for pontoons. There’d be vertical tubes that would drop down (think a pickup truck camper’s vertical supports for when you don’t have the pickup under it), so you could taxi to shore, jack down the tubes (broad plates on the bottoms for mud?), and detach the canoes. Go fishing for the day, then re-attach the canoes, jack up the tubes and take off. Am I nuts? I suppose someone’s going to tell me that it’d be easier to convert a pontoon to something that could double as an inefficient canoe. ;-D The big hazard is an obvious one, but what the heck. There’s gotta be a way. – Scott
Floats for airplanes are a lot tougher than canoes. They also have watertight compartments, so they all don’t fill up in case of a leak, or hole. They also have a raised portion just in back of the cener of gravity, so that once it is planning, the aircraft can rotate, and fly away. It might be easyer to convert a float into a canoe. Bettter yet, strap a a canoe onto the float, and leave the float alone. — Jim in NC–
Response:
How large of a sinker do you need to troll at 40 mph?
I’ll let you know in a couple of years, but from what they reckon, 20mph +full flap + 30%power = fly at 20mph – 20mph headwind = 0mph ground speed Peter
Response:
Floats for airplanes are a lot tougher than canoes. They also have watertight compartments, so they all don’t fill up in case of a leak, or hole. They also have a raised portion just in back of the cener of gravity, so that once it is planning, the aircraft can rotate, and fly away. It might be easyer to convert a float into a canoe. Bettter yet, strap a a canoe onto the float, and leave the float alone.
A canoe simply wouldn’t work as a float. I once tried to tow a canoe behind my boat, and as speed increased the canoe’s stern dug way down because the water followed the curvature of the hull instead of breaking away as it does off the step on a float or the squared-off end of a speedboat. The nose went higher until the canoe tipped over. The highest speed I was able to achieve was about 10 MPH, and the drag at that speed was enormous. Aircraft floats are designed the way they are for a critical purpose and it would be difficult indeed to come up with something much different that might still work. Dan
Response:
Aircraft floats are designed the way they are for a critical purpose and it would be difficult indeed to come up with something much different that might still work.
Looks like there’s agreement on that. Hokay, then, would any respectable homebuilt pontoon be capable of doubling as some kind of canoe? Granted, we still have the problem that a canoe is generally wide open, whereas a pontoon that’s wide open is ill-advised. Perhaps a kayak design, where a simple hole in the middle of the pontoon could be easily covered, might work — provided a pontoon would be seaworthy (why do I have this nagging sense it would just tip over no matter what you tried to do with it). Thanks to all for responding to an idea that I agree borders on the nonsensical. I’ll skip asking wether using a prop as a canoe paddle would eliminate the need to j-stroke. – Scott
Response:
I dunno…. p-factor, torque, and spiraling slipstream could all have an effect to eliminate the need for the j-stroke if you stroke only from the left side of the canoe, but ONLY if you use a propellor as a paddle…… If you use a paddle for a propellor make sure you feather it on the forward part of the stroke….. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks to all for responding to an idea that I agree borders on the nonsensical. I’ll skip asking wether using a prop as a canoe paddle would eliminate the need to j-stroke. – Scott
but thanks for the rest of the advice and i think the shopping place sounds nice! wendy 